Top Sauce versus Casing

As he always seems to do, BOTL Chico asked some intelligent questions that got me to writing. This was originally in the What Did You Smoke thread so I brought it over here. Keep up the good work Chico.

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

G&H Louisiana Flake, courtesy of

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

tmoran . I was expecting more of a tonquin/bourbon flavor from the casing it's supposed to have. I need to try another bowl to judge it on it's own merits now that I know it's more of a straight up VaPer.

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Top Sauce vs. Casing
reply to Chico Ortiz on August 3rd, 2015

Hi Chico,

Louisiana Flake isn't cased, it has a top sauce and the difference between the two methods is pretty substantial. Casing is the infusing or processing of tobacco with aroma(s) while top saucing is adding a scent to a (mostly) finished tobacco.

Top sauces burn off during smoking with some affect to the aroma while casing is an integral part of the tobacco so that the aroma is heavily noted. You might say that casing is an attempt to make the tobacco smoke like it smells while top saucing attempts to add a flavor note.

Tonquin, like coumarin, is an extract of the tonka bean and, in my experience (McConnell) it’s a stand alone saucing agent. Specific companies tend to use one or the other. McConnell and Sobranie used a coumarin based solution, generally without other scents. 1792 Flake is sauced (pretty heavily) with tonquin but I don’t detect it in Louisiana Flake (a favorite tobacco of mine).

It’s nearly impossible to miss the casing in a tobacco while top sauce detection seems to be based on the individual. I seem to have a threshold, below which I’m only vaguely aware of it and above I smell it more intensely but some smokers smell any top sauce.

Pete

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

Thanks - very informative. I didn't know any of that, and thought topping and casing were interchangeable terms. So far straight VAs, VaPers etc. are just too subtle for me, and it's the Oriental/Latakias I'm appreciating most. I'm going to give LA Flake another try soon. In fact, maybe I'll smoke a few VA blends in a row to try to figure them out better.

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

So is there a difference between the coumarin and tonquin flavors, considering they come from the same bean? And which McConnell blend(s) use it?

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I don’t believe that you were alone in thinking that casing and top sauce are interchangeable terms. The difference can be illustrated by burley that readily accepts flavors and is the base for most aromatics and virginia that doesn’t (readily) accept flavors and in consequence is usually top sauced instead.

This is a great explanation of coumarin: Coumarin wiki

I don’t know how tonquin is derived but I assume it to be a different method from coumarin, perhaps not an extract but rather a ground part of the tonka bean made into a solution.

I notice tonquin far more than I notice coumarin or possibly it’s used more liberally. I found that in McConnell and Sobranie mixtures the coumarin enhanced the natural aromas and added a binding faint sweetness that tastes integral to the leaf rather than artificially added. The result is a smooth, rich smoke and I doubt that anyone will duplicate the classic mixtures from these companies without using coumarin. McConnell and Sobranie used the best leaf and knew how to use coumarin as a top sauce to great effect.

I don’t know of any company that still uses coumarin. McConnell used it until they closed in 1989 but I don’t know about Sobranie. McConnell made their own line, Rattray’s, (my brand) Elephant & Castle, Ehrlich’s, Charatan and others. Some of these marques have been made by Kohlhase in Germany since 1989 but without coumarin (evident in the first German tin of Red Rapparee that I tried). Not all McConnell made mixtures used coumarin, but most of the English and Balkans were sauced with it.

Coumarin mixtures seem to age well, at least for a time, but the underlying tobacco may not. Tobacco packed under pressure ages faster than when packed loose. Latakia loses potency quicker than virginia, so very old latakia mixtures packed under pressure, like the 50-gram Sobranie #759 (black) start going downhill (imo) after about 8 years. It’s possible that coumarin actually degrades the tobacco and certainly McConnell and Sobranie didn’t make mixtures in the 1980s with the expectation that they’d be stored for many years.

I smoked hundreds of tins of McConnell (and Sobranie) so if coumarin is dangerous I’d probably have already grown another head.

I think it’s very normal to prefer latakia mixtures in the first years of smoking, it’s a big and direct flavor and they’re generally more forgiving with things like a tight pack than virginia. Flakes are a little more difficult to become comfortable in smoking but it’s nothing more than practice.

Pete

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

Thanks, Pete - another really interesting post. I tried a search on TR for blends with coumarin and they don't even have it as a category. Only about 10 have tonquin, and most of those are SG or GH.

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

What's your opinion of the K&K versions of the McConnell blends? Do they hold a candle, or even have similar flavor profiles? I've only had the Original Oriental and it's one of my favorite tobaccos so far (out of the merely dozen or so I've tried).

I was really interested to read about Elephant & Castle and your posts about it in a thread I found on another forum. Are you still blending, and do you have any recommendations that might be along the lines what E&C produced? Sounds like some pretty amazing blends!

Another reason I like latakias is that my dad smoked them, so to me it's what pipe tobacco is "supposed" to be. I've always liked smoky stuff in general, like Islay whiskies, smoked cheeses etc. My burley and VA uncertainties might be party due to being a former cigarette smoker. The VA I've enjoyed most so far was Firedance Flake, which is odd since I thought I didn't like strong aros.

(Sorry for threadjacking guys, but I wasn't sure what kind of new thread to start since we're touching on a lot of topics here - hope nobody minds).

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Hi Chico,

I believe that coumarin is now banned in many (all?) consumable products and I don’t know of any tobacco manufacturer that has used it since McConnell closed their doors in 1989. Tonquin seems to be part of the Gawith (both incarnations) family recipes.

I think that Kohlhase does as good a job as they can. They’ve never had the access to the quality of leaf that McConnell obtained nor do I feel that they have the expertise. I’ve smoked perhaps 8 Kohlhase Rattrays mixtures and it seems that they work from a common base in the English/Balkans so they’re less distinct entities than what they were previously. Kohlhase appears to use a top sauce but I don’t know what it is. I like them enough to have a few pounds cellared but I won’t smoke McConnell branded mixtures because that hits home emotionally (I did love them).

I’ll bump the thread on Elephant & Castle. I did a lot of blending in the 1970s and 80s and mostly made useful blends for the store but the best were certainly E&C. Three of the seven mixtures were mine but none of them could have been made without the collaboration of Ken McConnell. I’ve dabbled with blending recently, may do some more but I don’t like what I’ve made although @EmperorZurg was kind enough to assist with a lovely tobacco press (not for flakes) that gives me courage. I know the formula for E&C but the tobacco stocks are so much changed since 1989 and I lack Ken McConnell’s superb ability to blend based on the changes in leaf. I do have some coumarin.

Strange how much emotion there is in the aroma of your dad’s tobacco. I think it’s true of us all as evidenced by my not smoking McConnell branded mixtures.

I just opened a tin of Samuel Gawith 1792 Flake from 2000. It’s in splendid condition, lovely crystals on the flake and the tonquin still quite potent if not as bright as in a new tin. I’d say that the tonquin is even more imbued in the smoke than when new.

Pete

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Originally Posted by NeverBend

As he always seems to do, BOTL Chico asked some intelligent questions that got me to writing. This was originally in the What Did You Smoke thread so I brought it over here. Keep up the good work Chico.

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Thanks - not nearly as intelligent as your replies, though!

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Originally Posted by NeverBend

Hi Chico,

I believe that coumarin is now banned in many (all?) consumable products and I don’t know of any tobacco manufacturer that has used it since McConnell closed their doors in 1989. Tonquin seems to be part of the Gawith (both incarnations) family recipes.

I think that Kohlhase does as good a job as they can. They’ve never had the access to the quality of leaf that McConnell obtained nor do I feel that they have the expertise. I’ve smoked perhaps 8 Kohlhase Rattrays mixtures and it seems that they work from a common base in the English/Balkans so they’re less distinct entities than what they were previously. Kohlhase appears to use a top sauce but I don’t know what it is. I like them enough to have a few pounds cellared but I won’t smoke McConnell branded mixtures because that hits home emotionally (I did love them).

I’ll bump the thread on Elephant & Castle. I did a lot of blending in the 1970s and 80s and mostly made useful blends for the store but the best were certainly E&C. Three of the seven mixtures were mine but none of them could have been made without the collaboration of Ken McConnell. I’ve dabbled with blending recently, may do some more but I don’t like what I’ve made although @EmperorZurg was kind enough to assist with a lovely tobacco press (not for flakes) that gives me courage. I know the formula for E&C but the tobacco stocks are so much changed since 1989 and I lack Ken McConnell’s superb ability to blend based on the changes in leaf. I do have some coumarin.

Strange how much emotion there is in the aroma of your dad’s tobacco. I think it’s true of us all as evidenced by my not smoking McConnell branded mixtures.

I just opened a tin of Samuel Gawith 1792 Flake from 2000. It’s in splendid condition, lovely crystals on the flake and the tonquin still quite potent if not as bright as in a new tin. I’d say that the tonquin is even more imbued in the smoke than when new.

Pete

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Thanks for sharing your knowledge, and for starting this thread and bumping the E&C one.

It'll be interesting to see if my opinion of Original Oriental evolves as I try more Oriental-forward blends. I think only other one I've had so far is EMP, and I prefer the OO. I have some McClelland's 996 which I haven't tried yet.

Next to 1792, what you say is currently the most tonquin-heavy blend?

Yes, it is funny the memories and emotions attached to tobaccos aromas. I think it's as powerful as music in that way - it bring you right back to a time and place. On many of the "what got you into pipes" threads, people so often mention childhood memories of fathers and grandfathers. I can definitely understand why you'd avoid "McConnell" products.


EDIT: moved part of my reply to E&C thread.

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

Thanks - not nearly as intelligent as your replies, though!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, and for starting this thread and bumping the E&C one.

It'll be interesting to see if my opinion of Original Oriental evolves as I try more Oriental-forward blends. I think only other one I've had so far is EMP, and I prefer the OO. I have some McClelland's 996 which I haven't tried yet.

Next to 1792, what you say is currently the most tonquin-heavy blend?

Yes, it is funny the memories and emotions attached to tobaccos aromas. I think it's as powerful as music in that way - it bring you right back to a time and place. On many of the "what got you into pipes" threads, people so often mention childhood memories of fathers and grandfathers. I can definitely understand why you'd avoid "McConnell" products.


EDIT: moved part of my reply to E&C thread.

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Hi Chico,

You seem to have a handle on the blends that you're trying. Take note of the country of origin because it may be possible that a particular tobacco is packaged under a different brand (and that'd confusing). I taught new smokers that their enjoyment would be a combination of taste, technique and mental impression.

• Taste is self explanatory.
• Each tobacco presents small challenges to get it to perform but when you conquer it the enjoyment is heightened.
• What you expect and how well the tobacco meets your preconceptions enhances the experience.

I have no idea what mixtures are tonquin heavy beyond 1792. Full Virginia Flake has a touch. Perhaps others can weigh in on this question?

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Originally Posted by NeverBend

Hi Chico,

You seem to have a handle on the blends that you're trying. Take note of the country of origin because it may be possible that a particular tobacco is packaged under a different brand (and that'd confusing). I taught new smokers that their enjoyment would be a combination of taste, technique and mental impression.

• Taste is self explanatory.
• Each tobacco presents small challenges to get it to perform but when you conquer it the enjoyment is heightened.
• What you expect and how well the tobacco meets your preconceptions enhances the experience.

I have no idea what mixtures are tonquin heavy beyond 1792. Full Virginia Flake has a touch. Perhaps others can weigh in on this question?

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Nice summary, thanks. Very true in my limited experience. The 3rd point is exactly what happened with the Louisiana Flake I tried.

Pete, @NeverBend , what do you know about deer tongue? I gather it's another vanilla-like flavor used in tobacco?

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

Pete, @NeverBend, what do you know about deer tongue? I gather it's another vanilla-like flavor used in tobacco?

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Evening Chico,

Funny that you should ask but I just read this Deer Tongue

As far as the tobacco component, it's an herb, from the lily family I believe. It's been used for medicinal purposes by Colonists and Native Americans. Some people think that it has a vanilla taste but it tastes like an herb to me and it ghosts. It's not coumarin but there is a little chemical similarity. I never liked blending with it so I don't.

Pete

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Originally Posted by NeverBend

Evening Chico,

Funny that you should ask but I just read this Deer Tongue

As far as the tobacco component, it's an herb, from the lily family I believe. It's been used for medicinal purposes by Colonists and Native Americans. Some people think that it has a vanilla taste but it tastes like an herb to me and it ghosts. It's not coumarin but there is a little chemical similarity. I never liked blending with it so I don't.

Pete

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Ack! That's not at all what I was expecting when I clicked on that link! I'm not sure that's the best bedtime story.... Did you happen to see the Curb Your Enthusiasm episode with the missing autographed baseball? Similar conclusion. I need to read some comics to cleanse my mind now.

Thanks for the info about the herb version. It does sound a little odd... Which, of course, makes me want to try it!

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Originally Posted by NeverBend

Evening Chico,

Funny that you should ask but I just read this Deer Tongue

As far as the tobacco component, it's an herb, from the lily family I believe. It's been used for medicinal purposes by Colonists and Native Americans. Some people think that it has a vanilla taste but it tastes like an herb to me and it ghosts. It's not coumarin but there is a little chemical similarity. I never liked blending with it so I don't.

Pete

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D A M N Pete @NeverBend , That's a Great way to start my Sunday morning.Now I gotta go get some of that "Deer Tongue"!
Not in this life time !!!


Matthew

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Originally Posted by NeverBend

Evening Chico,

Funny that you should ask but I just read this Deer Tongue

Pete

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"a large piece of gelatinous, decaying flesh."

Pictures, or it didn't happen.

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

Ack! That's not at all what I was expecting when I clicked on that link! I'm not sure that's the best bedtime story.... Did you happen to see the Curb Your Enthusiasm episode with the missing autographed baseball? Similar conclusion. I need to read some comics to cleanse my mind now.

Thanks for the info about the herb version. It does sound a little odd... Which, of course, makes me want to try it!

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Originally Posted by Lostmason

D A M N Pete @NeverBend , That's a Great way to start my Sunday morning.Now I gotta go get some of that "Deer Tongue"!
Not in this life time !!!
Matthew

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Originally Posted by Alligator Gar

"a large piece of gelatinous, decaying flesh."

Pictures, or it didn't happen.

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I should have put a disclaimer before the link but honestly, would that have stopped you guys from clicking if I'd captioned it, Deer Tongue Vagina??

Pictures!! Egads, I can't get that visual OUT of my mind!

I found this article when searching for vendors, didn't want nor buy any but I thought that this article might serve to warn you guys off of the stuff but I see that you are too intrepid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

Ack! That's not at all what I was expecting when I clicked on that link! I'm not sure that's the best bedtime story.... Did you happen to see the Curb Your Enthusiasm episode with the missing autographed baseball? Similar conclusion. I need to read some comics to cleanse my mind now.

Thanks for the info about the herb version. It does sound a little odd... Which, of course, makes me want to try it!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lostmason

D A M N Pete @NeverBend , That's a Great way to start my Sunday morning.Now I gotta go get some of that "Deer Tongue"!
Not in this life time !!!
Matthew

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alligator Gar

"a large piece of gelatinous, decaying flesh."

Pictures, or it didn't happen.

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I should have put a disclaimer before the link but honestly, would that have stopped you guys from clicking if I'd captioned it, Deer Tongue Vagina??

Pictures!! Egads, I can't get that visual OUT of my mind!

I found this article when searching for vendors, didn't want nor buy any but I thought that this article might serve to warn you guys off of the stuff but I see that you are too intrepid.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by c.ortiz108

Ack! That's not at all what I was expecting when I clicked on that link! I'm not sure that's the best bedtime story.... Did you happen to see the Curb Your Enthusiasm episode with the missing autographed baseball? Similar conclusion. I need to read some comics to cleanse my mind now.

Thanks for the info about the herb version. It does sound a little odd... Which, of course, makes me want to try it!

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lostmason

D A M N Pete @NeverBend , That's a Great way to start my Sunday morning.Now I gotta go get some of that "Deer Tongue"!
Not in this life time !!!
Matthew

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alligator Gar

"a large piece of gelatinous, decaying flesh."

Pictures, or it didn't happen.

---

I should have put a disclaimer before the link but honestly, would that have stopped you guys from clicking if I'd captioned it, Deer Tongue Vagina??

Pictures!! Egads, I can't get that visual OUT of my mind!

I found this article when searching for vendors, didn't want nor buy any but I thought that this article might serve to warn you guys off of the stuff but I see that you are too intrepid.

Very interesting thread. Reading about great blends that are no longer available in their original form saddens me. Then I read about a woman that somehow forgot putting a deer tongue there, and realize my problems don't hardly qualify as problems.

Yes, we would have clicked the link no matter how you labeled it.

Pete, I am completely in agreement about not wanting to see pictures of the removal.

I'm pretty sure the world's a better place WITHOUT pictures of that inauspicious circumstance :)

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Originally Posted by Alligator Gar

"a large piece of gelatinous, decaying flesh."

Pictures, or it didn't happen.

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Bah hah haha ha!

That story makes the whole Clinton/Lewinsky Gurkha episode seem so wholesome. Ah, for simpler times...