Printable View
So here's the video that @Lapithicus was referring to:
http://youtu.be/HVxQU9nkuRI
If you skip to 23:00 you can see the discussion about these cigars.
What I don't understand is if Bryan knew the whole story back in early January when this video was produced why did he bother to create a new one with all of the hyperbole. Doesn't make much sense to me.
Advertising is primarily bullshit. I wish it weren't allowed to be but it is. If it's 100% bullshit and the product's advertising is specifically regulated and it's damaging, then there might be legal reprocussions. But if it's only 80% bullshit, there's really no downside. In this particular instance, as long as it's tobacco inside (vs rat feces or oily rags) it's within acceptable tolerances. If you have a problem with it, vote with your feet.
Porsche sells its name to a myriad of others.. I've seen Porsche vacuums, Porsche lighters, all sorts of stuff that's obviously not made by Porsche.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1979
And hey, that's great, if you get ripped off so often that you're at a point in life where you don't mind when someone bends you over and sticks it in your butt one more time, then that's wonderful. I'm not at that point, hope I never am.Quote:
MY point and MY opinion is that this happens so much with so many other products that it just isn't an issue for me personally.
If this were a one-off from Cigars International, this thread wouldn't have expanded to 12 pages. However, I think that they, Thompson, the rest of the online cigar retailers, and perhaps the entire cigar industry are seen as such marketing hucksters that one more example just pisses people off even more. It's like a slow boil.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y20...orsebeat_4.gif. <--- still beating a dead horse.
We go from talking about cars to you using lighters and vacuums... to try to prove your point? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ropey
So you study the manufacturer of every product you buy so that you are not buying something that is made by someone, then rebranded and sold for more money? Very doubtful. Also, making the assumption that I get ripped off and saying someone is sticking it up my butt is real classy bro, you know nothing about me buddy. The fact of the matter is, I really don't care if someone gets me for 50 cents if I would have bought a generic brand versus a name brand. Life is too short for that petty shit and not worth worrying about. If that is what your life is about, then have fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ropey
You're the one who brought up some Porsche analogy and then, when other people extended it, you failed to comprehend what they were saying and wanted people to stop talking about it. We're the confused ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1979
No, of course not, I just don't trash people who bring to my attention shady marketing. Nor do I excuse shady marketers because "everyone is doing it."Quote:
So you study the manufacturer of every product you buy so that you are not buying something that is made by someone, then rebranded and sold for more money?
I have to admit, I don't even know how to address what you're talking about anymore. You just seem to be out of your intellectual league here. You brought up an analogy, some people gave you alternative ways of looking at your own analogy, and now you can't even seem to grasp what anyone is saying. It's kind of strange.
The post I quoted, and was responding to (with the one you quoted) we were talking about Porsche selling their name and rights to the 928 (a car, not a vacuum or a lighter) to a Vietnamese manufacturer to be sold under the same name, I said they would never do that. As far my analogy goes, extending it and taking it in a completely different irrelevant direction are two different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ropey
And FYI, the lighters, watches, etc... are Porsche Design, not Porsche AG but they do own it.
There is a significant portion, I daresay even a majority of the cigar smoking community which is always trying to find that magical cigar which smokes & tastes like a super premium but only costs a dollar or two. I'm pretty sure all of us have been there at some point in our cigar smoking progression. Hopefully most of us have learned by now that the old maxim, "you get what you pay for" applies to cigars as much as it does to any other endeavor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ropey
However the large online vendors have learned that they can be very successful by marketing to that segment and they use "marketing speak" to do that. That's exactly what they did with the cigars which are the subject of this thread. I don't think they were being blatantly dishonest and the price point should be a very large clue that these weren't going to be Padron clones so I really don't have a problem with their tactics even though I don't think it benefits the cigar industry as a whole.
As far as the people who buy them, it's kind of like those Einsteins that fall for the Nigerian email scams. I really don't have a whole lot of sympathy for them. Do you really think you're going to get something for nothing?
Game, set, match!Quote:
Originally Posted by Billb1960
Although I will admit I'm still on the lookout for that $3 super premium!:stogie:
That's my whole point. How much is 'non-premium' tobacco really worth? We don't know, because there is no such thing as 'non-premium' tobacco, there is no such thing as 'non-premium' cigars--according to the fraudulent marketing practices by these online retailers, there are only 'premium' cigars and 'premium' tobacco in the market. To an uninformed consumer, a 2-dollar shit missile is just as 'premium' as a Davidoff Nicaraguan, because that's how these sites market those cigars. The only difference is the price. One is an $18 'premium' cigar and the other, a $2 'premium' cigar.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanTheEvans
That's how companies like CI, Thompson, J&R, and other large online retailers deceive people into buying garbage. They market each cigar, Davidoff Nicaraguan and 2-dollar shit rocket, under the same 'premium' umbrella. Even more pathetic is the fact that they are perfectly within their rights to do so and are not breaking any laws. Why? Because there is absolutely no Federal oversight protecting consumers from these fraudulent marketing practices. According to their marketing methods, whether I buy the $18 Davidoff or the $2 Dog Rocket, I am still buying a 'PREMIUM' cigar.
When I first started with cigars, I signed up at the old site and put a thread out there. Top Five Nic/Dom/Hon, or something like that. And the good people responded with over 200 posts!!! Thanks to all who participated!!! I am still buying and smoking cigars from that list. In fact, the kind people here helped me avoid all kinds of pitfalls out there for the new cigar smoker. And by 'pitfalls', I mean marketing traps like the kind CI and others practice. If it wasn't for the cigar lovers here, I would've been ordering garbage and smoking shite thinking the whole time it was 'premium.' And that is inherently wrong, in my humble and very confused opinion. It doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
Honestly, how much do you think that Blanco cigar is really worth? The price really only reflects the importation costs and that's it. I bet down in the Dominican, where it was manufactured, it's probably worth 5 cents, maybe even 10. So yes, I would say that cigar freshly rolled in the Dominican Republic probably costs no more than 25 cents. But that's just a guess. I don't know what's more disturbing: the value of the cigar itself, or the fact that it is being marketed here as a 'premium' cigar. They are both quite disturbing to me.
I think it is safe to say that not only did we beat this horse to death but also dismembered the carcas and buried the pieces at the four corners of the earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Browns7213
Speaking of Star Wars
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9kcv7c8b.jpg
Of course Porsche wouldn't allow that. That's kinda my point, and also beside the point. The reason I brought it up is because it's a ridiculous scenario, but also more aligned with what I think CI is doing, than Porsche simply using some VW parts in their cars. Just trying to illustrate that in my mind, it's a practice that shouldn't be accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1979
Of course CI isn't the only one doing it, and it's something much more tolerable with $2 cigars than $80k cars. I really don't mean to come across as argumentative in tone to you or anyone else on this thread. It's an interesting discussion to me (and apparently not many others). I don't even necessarily disagree with you. Just see it a little differently. :stogie:
Favorite Tweet about that event: "The tears of one hundred million nerds will heal Harrison Ford"Quote:
Originally Posted by Billb1960
Every town needs a police chief...
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...psyzkuolx2.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...pspimzcr1d.jpg
You're not getting ripped off. That's the point. You're getting exactly what you paid for; a sub $2 cigar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ropey
I guess you'd feel a lot better letting the FDA define what is and what is not a 'premium cigar'. Is that what you want? Government regulation of cigars? I thought we had reached a consensus on that months ago...
If that's your major gripe, that one word, then get over it. Instead you'll defend Brian for calling it a "fake" cigar? Just because he's the small guy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeat5353
And yes, if there are two kinds of cigars, there could be "machine-made" and "premium", which yes, covers a LOT of ground. Just like there can be a $2 premium and a $20 premium, the same goes with alcohol. Is not the 14X filtered PREMIUM VODKA sold in plastic jugs the same thing? Are you confused as to which will taste like toiletwater and give you a headache in the morning when shopping for these things?
Are you saying that without help from others, you'd STILL be smoking $2 dogrockets wondering why they weren't as "Premium" (in your mind, of course, some people LOVE em) as you expected- KNOWING that there are also much much more expensive cigars out there? And you would think, HEY-BOTH PREMIUM! and not know that there was any difference otherwise?
If that's the case, you might need the government to hold your hand, probably as you cross the street, as you may be a danger to yourself and/or others.
You're saying a cigar can be worth 5 cents and sold for that in America? You realize machine-made cigars sell for $0.50. How is one that takes human hands to create worth 1/5 of that? Have you no knowledge of what goes into logistics, or no respect for any of the work put into making a hand-made cigar, even if it has what you consider less-than-premium filler?
The point here, is that premium is subjective, so it can be used in advertising when some may disagree. They are not saying certain things that are flat outright lies, and that's why they can get away with it. Making accusations and saying someone is being dishonest without real proof, based only on your interpretation of a subjective word is not okay. You can express your opinion, but that's not what happened, and why the video was removed. It crossed the line that keeps coming up in these countless imaginary scenarios and comparisons that aren't what happened. The cigar wasn't even being called a "premium" at the time, which means this whole thing is really a big case of
http://images.christianpost.com/full...th-problem.jpg
Best part - finding company's use of loose word "premium" contentious, while feeling fully in the right throwing around words like "fraudulent"
I believe that's where he might be going with it? I'd say any hand-rolled cigar can be considered "premium". It's not a well-defined word. Many companies call things premium that aren't exactly that. But it's subjective, so it's not technically a lie. Advertisers use this all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Zurg
I'm glad that this is what we're concerned about the government regulating rather than companies having to tell us if there is laboratory engineered DNA in the things we eat
I have nothing productive to say that hasn't been said already so I leave you with this....
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps1dhnubpj.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...psrfm8pszh.gif
Hey Sean. I'm not looking to begin some long diatribe on the current marketing practices in the cigar industry. I think the market is fine the way it is. We get good cigars at affordable prices. I guess the 60-Minutes journalist in me (wannabe, lol) is looking to uncover every single form of corruption and fraud. Honestly, I like CI, regardless of their marketing practices. And, honestly, I don't put too much stock in Bryan Glynn's opinion about cigars. Like I said, I find it unbelievable that he has 10,000+ Youtube subscribers and a good reputation among industry insiders. Maybe this whole thing is over some personal grudge we don't even know about. Who knows?
I will concede that my use of the word 'fraudulent' is a bit heavy-handed and presumptuous on my part. What marketing execs do to sell their product is well within the laws and regulations of commerce. I do not want any more Federal oversight than the next guy. But I think there's something to be said for 'Lemon Laws.' Otherwise we'd still be buying crappy used cars for top-dollar. Now I don't know if 'Lemon Laws' in the used car industry can be applied to cigar industry marketing practices. Probably not. And it doesn't matter to me if such laws were in place, at this point, because now I know better and, like I said, I feel the industry is fine the way it is for my purposes. But keep in mind that for years sleezy car salesmen used the Caveat Emptor clause in sales to fleece and swindle consumers.
After reading Ropey's post, I kinda extrapolated (even perhaps exaggerated) a deeply unethical practice within the industry. But your point is very valid. Morally unethical practices are an entirely different thing than fraudulent. Ropey is correct in saying these marketing practices happen in a gray area of federal regulation. When you go to the gas station, there are always three grades of octane you can buy. It's still the same product, technically speaking. It's gasoline. Most luxury engines burn fuel more efficiently at higher octane levels, so therefore it's a federal requirement that each grade is indicated and priced accordingly. There's probably other reasons for those grades and I won't pretend to know them. I don't.
Why not have the same standards for tobacco? Because clearly there are different 'grades' of the tobacco used to make cigars, and they are priced accordingly. Any way, I think I've exhausted this thread. I am not trying to indict the whole marketing machine of the cigar industry. I think it's fine the way it is. Is there room for improvement? I think there is.
You are also correct in calling the word 'premium' subjective. 'Premium' covers a wide spectrum of cigars with varying qualities. But returning to my gasoline analogy, if all grades were 'premium,' then at the pump I'd be buying regular fuel under a premium classification. So in that instance, the word 'premium' is not subjective at all. It's comparable. But like I said, the subjective use of the word 'premium' allows cigar marketers a broad spectrum. You're right, though. By no means fraudulent. Morally unethical, maybe. I think that's a personal judgment that really depends on the moral lens through which you view the world in general. But you are right: 'Fraudulence' is too heavy a word and too heavy an accusation.
I leave this thread with one simple question. Heck, it might even be interesting to have a poll on this. Is the following cigar really 'Premium'?
http://www.cigarsinternational.com/s...-box/#p-150816
Yes or no?
I say, 'No.' If you took a blind test with the cigar above and, say, a Padron '26, it would be easy to determine which cigar had genuine, premium tobacco. In fact, if a 100 testers took the same blind test, I bet 100% of them would identify which cigar had better quality tobacco in it.
They seem to have some decent reviews:
http://kohnhed.com/2013/11/10/kismet...-cigar-review/
http://www.blindmanspuff.com/blind-c...d-kismet-fate/
http://cigarfederation.com/profiles/...kismet-destiny
Oh look. Katman declared it a flavor bomb. He said the same thing in the Los Blancos Premiere Selection review I linked to earlier in this thread. I actually enjoy his reviews, but he likes a lot of stuff I would never touch. I guess that's kinda my issue with CI buying brands and contracting them out at lower quality. There are reviews out there that make people think they're good cigars, and people may think they're getting a great deal, only to find out they've paid for crap.
I just bought a box of Ave Marias on cbid last night for $60. That's $3 a stick, and even though I believe these have been CI smokes from the get go, if I get my box and find out they're not the same as all the others I've come to enjoy, I'll be pretty pissed off. I think they're fantastic morning smokes, and at $3 each, they're an incredible value.
For the sake of honesty, I actually just bought the sampler. LOL! They look pretty decent. I never admitted anywhere that I was not a sucker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billb1960
Well first of all Katman wasn't the only one who liked it which is why I posted links to 2 other reviews. That aside we've drifted off into apples & oranges comparisons here.Quote:
Originally Posted by wabashcr
AFAIK Kismet is still made by Royal Gold and isn't some no name stick rebranded because CI bought the stock of leftover bands & boxes. The same scenario applies to Ave Maria, they're made by AJF so I don't think you have anything to worry about unless you've heard something different.
The Los Blanco cigar that he reviewed was made by the company owned by David Blanco as opposed to the unnamed DR factory pumping out the dogrockets.
looks Premium to me..except for that Churchill Id have to cut in half
It would appear that way, since I believe Blanco actually sent him the cigar. His review is just a year old, so I'm sure some unsuspecting people have bought the CI version, since it has the exact same name and band.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billb1960
As for Ave Maria, yes, it's an AJF stick, but I believe it's a CI exclusive. So I'm not sure what's stopping them from building a decent reputation, and then pulling the old bait and switch again. if AJ has any stake in it, they could easily buy him out and move to a cheaper product. I hope they don't, because I love those smokes.
Contrary to what I've posted in this thread, I don't dislike CI. Actually quite the opposite, I've had nothing but good experiences buying from them. One particular business practice of theirs (that I'm sure isn't unique to CI in the industry) seems really unethical to me. But I don't think that makes them a bad company. To me it's just a bit of a black eye. Overall I think CI is a good outfit.
anybody that gives a old guy discount I'll buy from..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
LOLOLOLOLOLO!!! Now I know this thread has come to its bitter end. At least we were able to carry on a decent discussion until Mr. Troll Non Sequitur showed up!!! I'm sure you're a big fan of premium Dog Rockets, Lynn. Especially after you dust them up nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
I hope you're the old man you say you are. And if you are, then I apologize for my recent tirades directed towards you. But something tells me you are here to cause trouble. Incite anger. Upset the balance of the community. Typical trolling behavior. You know, Lynn, because of you I face being banned from this forum. Which would suck, because my real interest is trying to be a productive member of this community.
I've accepted my punishment for my expletive-filled tirade directed towards you. I just happen to descend from a family of mean Sicilians and tough Irish bastards. Our tolerance from BS is zero. I lost my cool. And there's no place for that kind of interaction here in a peaceful community of cigar smokers. Never, in fact, have I ever erupted at someone in a forum in the way I erupted at you. If you are who you say you are, then accept my apology.
But if you are not that person (a harmless old Marine who just likes to disrupt every productive thread with non-sequitur, contrarian one-liners) then my comments directed towards you are justified. You constantly seem to turn up in every constructive thread and then offer nothing but inflammatory, irrelevant interjections, which only seem meant to incite resentment and acrimony.
In your introduction to people here, you stated that you are the peg that doesn't fit the hole. No. You are a United States Marine. You stated that you have no real interest in being a productive community member, and that one forum is the same as another. You also stated that your only real interest here is to eventually be the first one banned, because you've been banned from all the other forums you've ever been a part of.
So why is it that every thread I've seen you in, you are constantly trying to subvert and controvert what people are saying? I tell you that Thompson Cigar Co. ripped me off and didn't refund my money, you then chime in to say how wonderful they are and you order from them all the time and have never been burned. When the whole time, the thread was about a member here getting burned by them. All I was trying to do was prevent unsuspecting suckers like me from being swindled into a $150 pitfall.
We then have an interesting discussion in the Habanos section about revealing vendor names and practices. Some say it's a good idea, others say it's not. But you tell us we're all fools and then reveal the name of a vendor in Mexico, not only jeopardizing the vendor's livelihood but at the same time undermining the credibility of this fledgling forum altogether. You know, Lynn, maybe not in the coal mines of West Virginia, but here in the real world, in the streets, there's lawyers, cops, crooks, pimps, rats, and scum everywhere. And they're all looking to make a name for themselves, one way or another. I was glad to see the moderators removed your awful rotten post.
I've been an editor for years. Worked in film, television, for newspapers, magazines, and websites. I never had great success at it. But I have learned one thing along the way. A successful magazine, website, movie, television production, newspaper, whatever...its success always depends on two things: the people who are attracted to it, and every single individual involved in making it. You put one bad egg in the mix and the whole thing falls apart eventually. Look at what Don King did for heavy weight boxing. People like you, who come to these forums to be disruptive, unproductive, antagonistic, really just undermine the whole effort of those who wish its success.
Now I'd like to believe you're some harmless old veteran wiling away your idle hours by stirring up bad blood, resentment, and acrimony. But my past experience with forums tells me otherwise. My real feeling is that you are a disgruntled former member of Puff.com with a grudge against our moderators here. That's why everything you say and do here stinks of vindictiveness. I now work in the investigation field, with lawyers and cops. I know the smell of shit after I've stepped in it.
I've done a search of your user name at other prominent cigar forums. Nothing turns up. You also joined Cigarbum just a few days after the disappearance of the old site. Hmmmmmm, really? Most of your contributions here in the threads I've been involved in have been downright confrontational, disruptive, and unproductive. It almost seems as if you are here to settle a grudge by trying--completely and purposefully--to undermine the legitimacy of this forum. Hmmm, one forum is as good as another, so you claim. You've been banned from all your previous forums. Hmmmmm, were you banned from Puff? Hmmmmmm, I wonder......
Is that what you tell the Asian woman at the massage parlor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
Maybe this is a clue what factory Dave Blanco sold his label to that he didn't want to mention.
Posted on Monday, March 9, 2015 on CO
"Today I received and responded to what boiled down to a cease and desist Trademark Violation letter from General Cigar, for my Cigar Art involving their frontmarks, which is now just a portfolio here on the site. Since it’s not worth a penny to me to fight, I gave in and stopped offering the artwork for sale.
So as a result I am no longer supporting in any way, General Cigar. No more reviews of their products (unless one accidentally slips by because I didn’t realize it was under their umbrella), no more press releases, no more accepting them for advertising.
To be crystal clear I am not advocating consumers do anything. I am simply informing you of what I am personally doing regarding the site.
So there’s a big warning to anyone producing and selling anything with Brands/Logos such as any other kind of artwork, clocks, guitars, collages with bands, etc."
Interesting. Also, General and CI are both owned by the same parent company. Not something they like to broadcast.
There it is in a nutshell. If you read some of the chatter underneath the story, Glynn and another viewer both find it ironic that this comes on the heels of the CI debacle last week. Glynn is also asking--in so many words--all his 10,000+ subscribers to boycott GC products. LOL! I hope that fat dope knows who he's messing with. There's a lot of hungry alligators in the swamps of Florida.Quote:
Originally Posted by wabashcr
Ironic that the producers of Cohiba, Partagas, Punch, etc. have sent him a trademark violation letter. Btw, I did not know that General and CI are owned by same parent company, Scandinavian Tobacco Group (STG). They're a massive European tobacco conglomerate. That means high-priced army of lawyers. The big guy wins again.
http://halfwheel.com/parent-general-...wnership-stake
That's an interesting article. The company is planning on building a Cigars International Superstore in Texas in the latter part of 2015!!! Here comes the Walmart of cigars. The walk-in humidor will probably be 10,000 square feet. That actually might be cool.
Y'all might find this interesting. It's a good episode but, it is queued up from youtube at 39m18s
http://youtu.be/mtBBMYgx6dw?t=39m21s
On a retailed follow up. http://cigarobsession.com/2015/03/18...igar-industry/
CI has updated the description on their site for the Blanco:
"Sink your teeth into this massively discounted blowout on Dominican handmades. Humidor-style chests, 4 blends, big sizes, prices under 2 bucks per cigar. This economical short-filler blend is perfect for mowing the lawn or handing out to cigar-wasting freeloaders.
The Maduro option presents sweet, rich, and hearty characteristics balanced by notes of espresso, cream, cocoa, and black pepper."
I have to give them [CI] some props for lending more clarity to what the product is while also bringing some levity to the whole situation. In the end, Glynn, CI and the consumer all win. Glynn ups his site traffic, as does CI and the consumer gets a little knowledge and transparency out of it all. They say even bad press is good press.
So, against my better judgement I went to CO to read his drivel. After reading the responses from the retailers and manufacturers I come away with one opinion. A few of them are lying through their teeth in order to protect their business model and their image as a purveyor of premium cigars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc L
Agree. And I think we know which ones, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Browns7213
I'm far from a CO/BG fan, and he definitely made some mistakes with this. But I have to give him some credit. He has a voice in the industry, and he's using it here for something worthwhile, something that definitely benefits consumers. I don't think any of these sellers are going to change their business practices overnight because of this. But he's managed to shine a fairly bright light on the issue, and has brought many of the major players in the industry into the discussion. I'm not sure what that's worth, but I think it's worth something.
ok did i read that right BG wants ALL OF HIS VIEWERS to email cigar manufactures and retailers asking if they make and sell real cigars???? thats rediculous. these companiesa are going to be FLOODED with pointless emails because he got a spank on the hand?? i find this move as very bad taste by him imo