Newb question about tinned vs. bulk tobacco

[johnnyflake]

Hi John,

Very good advice offered in this thread.

You make a very good point about the possibility that the bulk tobacco is made as a separate batch from the tins, whether in the same location or not. No two batches of tobacco are ever exactly the same through they're usually close. If a company makes separate batches for use in tins and another for bulk there will be subtle differences. If they source from different areas (as I'd presume if it's made in different locations) the differences could be more apparent.

Good point about testing the vacuum seal on the tin. Your method of testing is more definitive but if there's any give to the top of the tin it's a bad seal.

Lastly, tobacco tinned under pressure will marry faster and age more quickly. I put tobacco into mason jars with more pressure. Without pressure, the tobacco in mason jars will be ready to smoke more quickly but age less. Flakes, if left together as a cake will age well.

Pete

That is a very good point!

Another way to age bulk tobacco, a way I started using about 7 years ago, is to break it up into 1.0oz, 2.0oz, & 4.0oz units and then use a food style vacuum sealing unit and the thick 8oz size sealing bags, to vacuum seal the tobaccos, in the sizes that suit your needs best. I have opened a number of them at the 3, 4 & 5 year periods and the differences are amazing, especially with Virginia and Va/Perique blends. McClelland 2015, after just 3 years, smells exactly like Chocolate Covered Cherries.

[Cool Breeze]

Another way to age bulk tobacco, a way I started using about 7 years ago, is to break it up into 1.0oz, 2.0oz, & 4.0oz units and then use a food style vacuum sealing unit and the thick 8oz size sealing bags, to vacuum seal the tobaccos, in the sizes that suit your needs best. I have opened a number of them at the 3, 4 & 5 year periods and the differences are amazing, especially with Virginia and Va/Perique blends. McClelland 2015, after just 3 years, smells exactly like Chocolate Covered Cherries.

Well, I learned something else today it looks like.
I was under the impression that it needed air to age properly.

We process our own deer so I have access to a vacuum sealer. And I have a few ounces of McClelland Red Cake that would be ideal to get started with.

[NeverBend]

Hi Coolbreeze,

Tins are vacuum sealed too but short of very expensive equipment you won't remove all oxygen with a household sealer nor a manufacturer sealed tin (that seal similarly to a mason jar). I've read that the changes in taste are made by aerobic bacteria but I don't know the source of that claim nor if it's true.

At intervals over the last 25 years I've been opening tins from the late 1980s (mostly one brand) and have found that the changes are consistent with tobaccos marrying rather than bacterial activity. If 'ageing' is the gradual (usually) subtle change in flavor profile then that too is consistent with marrying. Marrying is the acceptance of characteristics (flavor, aroma) from the other leaf in a mixture (or cigar).

Dry tobacco doesn't age well, (if at all), so I assume that moisture must be an agent of change. Virginia and Carolina do not easily flavor or take on the characteristics of other leaf. Both of these points support the idea that it is extended marrying that is actually what is transpiring. This explains why latakia loses potency and Virginia ages best (especially with extended ageing). If your hope is to achieve a smoother more nuanced version of the original mixture then understand how time in a vacuum sealed package affects what type of leaf because we shouldn't be warehousing latakia mixtures in the hopes that they will marry into something similar but superior to the original only to find that after 15 years it's just a muddled reminder of what it was.

A lack of oxygen would help to inhibit mold but most manufacturers use some form of anti-fungal. Long ago, Rattray Marlin Flake was notorious for molding (1980s and before) but it was still worth the effort .

Pete

[Cool Breeze]

If your hope is to achieve a smoother more nuanced version of the original mixture then understand how time in a vacuum sealed package affects what type of leaf because we shouldn't be warehousing latakia mixtures in the hopes that they will marry into something similar but superior to the original only to find that after 15 years it's just a muddled reminder of what it was.
Pete

Thanks Pete.
My main goal is to bring out the natural sweetness of the Virginias, which I've read aging does. It's all about natural sweet flavor for me and that's what I'm shooting for.

[johnnyflake]

Hi Coolbreeze,

Tins are vacuum sealed too but short of very expensive equipment you won't remove all oxygen with a household sealer nor a manufacturer sealed tin (that seal similarly to a mason jar). I've read that the changes in taste are made by aerobic bacteria but I don't know the source of that claim nor if it's true.

At intervals over the last 25 years I've been opening tins from the late 1980s (mostly one brand) and have found that the changes are consistent with tobaccos marrying rather than bacterial activity. If 'ageing' is the gradual (usually) subtle change in flavor profile then that too is consistent with marrying. Marrying is the acceptance of characteristics (flavor, aroma) from the other leaf in a mixture (or cigar).

Dry tobacco doesn't age well, (if at all), so I assume that moisture must be an agent of change. Virginia and Carolina do not easily flavor or take on the characteristics of other leaf. Both of these points support the idea that it is extended marrying that is actually what is transpiring. This explains why latakia loses potency and Virginia ages best (especially with extended ageing). If your hope is to achieve a smoother more nuanced version of the original mixture then understand how time in a vacuum sealed package affects what type of leaf because we shouldn't be warehousing latakia mixtures in the hopes that they will marry into something similar but superior to the original only to find that after 15 years it's just a muddled reminder of what it was.

A lack of oxygen would help to inhibit mold but most manufacturers use some form of anti-fungal. Long ago, Rattray Marlin Flake was notorious for molding (1980s and before) but it was still worth the effort .

Pete

Yes, aging is basically another word for marrying, which is actually what is going on, in the so called aging process.

Your statement "Dry tobacco doesn't age well, (if at all)" is true, if we were actually dealing with dry tobaccos, they would not age and they would taste terrible, if we tried to smoke them. Truly dry tobacco would crumble as you touched it. I don't believe dry tobacco was mentioned. The idea is to seal, bulk tobacco, in a vacuum sealed environment, with as little oxygen remaining as possible. We are not sucking any moisture out of it. What remains is tobacco filled with natural oils (where the flavors come from) and whatever moisture is left and whatever amount of PG, is in the mix and a small amount of oxygen. The micro environment that is created, is ideal for the aging/marrying process.

[NeverBend]

Yes, aging is basically another word for marrying, which is actually what is going on, in the so called aging process.

Your statement "Dry tobacco doesn't age well, (if at all)" is true, if we were actually dealing with dry tobaccos, they would not age and they would taste terrible, if we tried to smoke them. Truly dry tobacco would crumble as you touched it. I don't believe dry tobacco was mentioned. The idea is to seal, bulk tobacco, in a vacuum sealed environment, with as little oxygen remaining as possible. We are not sucking any moisture out of it. What remains is tobacco filled with natural oils (where the flavors come from) and whatever moisture is left and whatever amount of PG, is in the mix and a small amount of oxygen. The micro environment that is created, is ideal for the aging/marrying process.

Hi Johnny,

First, thanks for the info about the sealer and bags. I can't locate anyone selling bags thicker than 3.5 mil, do you have a source that you can share for them?

Excellent post. I was going o expand on some points but rather than hijack this thread I'll start a new one.

Pete

[johnnyflake]

Hi Johnny,

First, thanks for the info about the sealer and bags. I can't locate anyone selling bags thicker than 3.5 mil, do you have a source that you can share for them?

Excellent post. I was going o expand on some points but rather than hijack this thread I'll start a new one.

Pete

I know, I have been looking again since I responded to this thread. The 3.5 are really find and will work very well. I had found 5.0 mil on Amazon about a year, year & a half ago and picked up a 50 count package. Now I cannot find them either. I will probably order the 3.5 mil shortly.

[NeverBend]

I know, I have been looking again since I responded to this thread. The 3.5 are really find and will work very well. I had found 5.0 mil on Amazon about a year, year & a half ago and picked up a 50 count package. Now I cannot find them either. I will probably order the 3.5 mil shortly.

Hi Johnny,

I'll let you know what I find. I want the sealer for food (to freeze meat) so I'll buy accordingly but I'll order a unit this week (or week-end). Thanks again.

Pete

[mooster]

Yes, aging is basically another word for marrying, which is actually what is going on, in the so called aging process.

At the risk of pissing someone off again, I don't buy this. The reason canned food products have expiration dates is because the tastes change, not because the food goes bad. (Supposedly ten year old sardines are to die for; I'll never know-I can't stand them when they're new!) And I have a hard time believing that there's any "marrying" going on inside a can of Spam.

[johnnyflake]

at the risk of pissing someone off again, i don't buy this. The reason canned food products have expiration dates is because the tastes change, not because the food goes bad. (supposedly ten year old sardines are to die for; i'll never know-i can't stand them when they're new!) and i have a hard time believing that there's any "marrying" going on inside a can of spam.

omg - really!!!