What we have to lose

[Emperor Zurg]

Not to mention @cheaphumidors samplers.

http://www.cigarbum.com/forum/showth...-FINALLY-Here!

Excellent cigars at a great price for all levels and it helps support the site. Keeping the lights on isn't free.

They are excellent cigars. I'm mostly a pipe guy and I may even have to spring for one of those

But can you imagine how inconsiderate it is for a few members, running their mouths, to drive off all the retailers and then expect someone (like Don) to continue to pick up the tab for site hosting and maintenance? ...and then remain on the site defending their actions after their vitriol has destroyed any chance the site may have had to be self sustaining? I for one, can't imagine the gall it takes to do such a thing. There's a way to handle a complaint and there's a way not to handle it. IMO the very first thing you ought to do is get over yourself and step back and see if what you're about to blow up about is REALLY that big a deal. The $2, short filler cigar thing? Not a big deal. A broken pigtail in a box of good cigars? Not a big deal. A $200 box of premiums full of beetle holes? Big deal and I have no doubt the retailer would make it right - however, I wouldn't expect them to replace every single cigar in your humidor just because you were dumb enough to toss them in there without checking them first. FTR, 99.5% of the vendor bashing posts I've seen over at the other place were the result of one or more of 3 things: 1) The customer doing something aggressive from the start (like a credit card charge-back) 2) the customer making unreasonable demands 3) the customer airing their dirty laundry on the forum before ever trying to make it right with the vendor

[Demuths1770]

the bashing always got old on there. im glade it has yet to happen on here and hope to see more people in the industry join our great new home

[Jaybird]

YOu guys know he was directly talking about me at Stogie Toys right? BAaaahhhhhaaaaaaaa


Well said Cole! I totally agree man. There are so many benefits to both sides of the coin when it comes to this or any forum. Us as customers get GREAT deals and discounts and well, us as vendors get a direct way to interact with the consumer and find out EXACTLY what it is that you want. It really is a WIN WIN and I am SO happy to be on both sides of the coin! Not that I sell cigars here but elsewhere I am a very active forum member and vendor for Brewing Equipment and man I have to tell you it is nice as a vendor to know what our customers want and need.
I like this place!

Cheers
Jay

[wabashcr]

I think it's great that vendors and other industry types want to interact here. It's a good way for them to get feedback, and it provides the members here with a wealth of knowledge and resources within the hobby. I like that this is a welcoming place for fostering those relationships.

That said, I think it's a mistake to stifle criticism just to pander to these businesses (which is kind of what I'm inferring from this thread). Most vendors that interact here are probably good, honorable businesses that would appreciate all feedback, good or bad. While I would never air a complaint here without trying to work it out with the vendor, and would never leverage this forum to take advantage of a supplier, I do think there can be value in discussing shortcomings publicly. Sometimes in business, even smaller businesses, the right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing. I think a respectful, yet critical dialog, can be beneficial, and even welcomed by most businesses.

There are also some businesses in this industry with some very unscrupulous business practices. I don't see any reason to dance around that. If that keeps them from participating on the forum, is that really a bad thing? Is it considered "bashing" to be honest and direct about that? I think this forum's integrity is worth a lot more than a 10% discount.

To me, the tone of this thread is very much pro-vendor. While I think it's great to establish good relationships with vendors, I don't think that should ever come at the expense of members (consumers) getting the full story. I think it's dangerous to get too cozy with suppliers, and accountability can gradually be lost. I don't see that becoming an issue for 95% of the vendors in this industry, and hopefully none of the ones that choose to participate here.

[jhedrick83]

I think it's great that vendors and other industry types want to interact here. It's a good way for them to get feedback, and it provides the members here with a wealth of knowledge and resources within the hobby. I like that this is a welcoming place for fostering those relationships.

That said, I think it's a mistake to stifle criticism just to pander to these businesses (which is kind of what I'm inferring from this thread). Most vendors that interact here are probably good, honorable businesses that would appreciate all feedback, good or bad. While I would never air a complaint here without trying to work it out with the vendor, and would never leverage this forum to take advantage of a supplier, I do think there can be value in discussing shortcomings publicly. Sometimes in business, even smaller businesses, the right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing. I think a respectful, yet critical dialog, can be beneficial, and even welcomed by most businesses.

There are also some businesses in this industry with some very unscrupulous business practices. I don't see any reason to dance around that. If that keeps them from participating on the forum, is that really a bad thing? Is it considered "bashing" to be honest and direct about that? I think this forum's integrity is worth a lot more than a 10% discount.

To me, the tone of this thread is very much pro-vendor. While I think it's great to establish good relationships with vendors, I don't think that should ever come at the expense of members (consumers) getting the full story. I think it's dangerous to get too cozy with suppliers, and accountability can gradually be lost. I don't see that becoming an issue for 95% of the vendors in this industry, and hopefully none of the ones that choose to participate here.

I don't feel like anyone's opinions have been stifled here. I fact I think quite a few contentious threads have been allowed to run unmolesed and unclosed. I'd say Cigar Bum mode and admins have been very tolerant of dissenting opinions. Posts haven't been edited, members have been banned over these things. There may have been warnings to keep things on topic and civil but I don't think that can be reasonably objected to. The thread has a pro-vendor tone due in large part because we have been trying to answer Ropey's question of why we care if vendors are here or not. Naturally the answer will be pro-vendor. I agree it is good to express concerns about vendors as long as it is done in a respectful manner. I also think it's important for people to realize that just because they had a bad experience doesn't mean that company X is crooked, bad for the industry, etc. and not immediately turn it into a personal crusade to ruin company X. If there are consistent, repeated problems with vendors then yeah, that's a big issue. I just think you get more bees with honey than vinegar. That's not everyone's opinion and that's fine but for the best interests of the community attitudes need to stay respectful and realistic. I don't think that's too much to ask.

[Herf N Turf]

Why again do we care if vendors and/or retailers post here? I'm confused.

I also chafe at censorship. Especially when it feels like I'm being censored so that other people can make money.

First of all, and I assume this is your main concern... even though you've consistently been an author of contentious posts, no one has yet censored you. All your posts are here and remain intact, so I really don't understand your accusation of censorship.

Secondly, we ALL benefit from industry communication. We are pledged to allow them the space and free license to post anything they want, in order to advance our knowledge and feed us information, as well as answer questions and concerns that we, as consumers, might have. If we offend them, or tell them we either "don't care", or worse, "don't want them", we cheat ourselves out of extremely valuable information about the products we care about most. Why this doesn't make sense to you, only you can discern.

Personally, I want to ENCOURAGE industry people to frequent this forum. I cannot imagine a better way to get real information about the products we consume, IN REAL TIME, than to have representatives from tobacco companies coming here and telling us what's going on. They also should find us to be a place where they can come in order to find out what we're consuming, what we like, what we're excited about; what's working and what's not.

I want this place to be a place where both sides can communicate freely and openly with one another. I want to make this a place where industry insiders are comfortable and encouraged to speak freely.

As such, we're not going to be in the business of shewing them off, or insulting them. We will treat them with the same respect that we require member-to-member. We're not going to abide vendor bashing, or smack-talk about a retailer. If one of our members has a LEGITIMATE gripe, or has otherwise been "ripped off" by someone, fine, okay. That's something that's helpful and can benefit the community. Our responsibility as members is make absolutely certain that the information we're dispensing is vetted and absolutely accurate; that the vendor has been given EVERY POSSIBLE opportunity to make things right, BEFORE posting anything negative in open forum.

It is for the benefit of US ALL that such posts not be allowed on Cigar Bum. Offending vendors; retailers, manufactures and posting things that might otherwise discourage their activity here is anathema to the best interest of our community.

[Schatzman]

I think it's great that vendors and other industry types want to interact here. It's a good way for them to get feedback, and it provides the members here with a wealth of knowledge and resources within the hobby. I like that this is a welcoming place for fostering those relationships.

That said, I think it's a mistake to stifle criticism just to pander to these businesses (which is kind of what I'm inferring from this thread). Most vendors that interact here are probably good, honorable businesses that would appreciate all feedback, good or bad. While I would never air a complaint here without trying to work it out with the vendor, and would never leverage this forum to take advantage of a supplier, I do think there can be value in discussing shortcomings publicly. Sometimes in business, even smaller businesses, the right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing. I think a respectful, yet critical dialog, can be beneficial, and even welcomed by most businesses.

There are also some businesses in this industry with some very unscrupulous business practices. I don't see any reason to dance around that. If that keeps them from participating on the forum, is that really a bad thing? Is it considered "bashing" to be honest and direct about that? I think this forum's integrity is worth a lot more than a 10% discount.

To me, the tone of this thread is very much pro-vendor. While I think it's great to establish good relationships with vendors, I don't think that should ever come at the expense of members (consumers) getting the full story. I think it's dangerous to get too cozy with suppliers, and accountability can gradually be lost. I don't see that becoming an issue for 95% of the vendors in this industry, and hopefully none of the ones that choose to participate here.

I tend to side with you on this. I work in this industry and I would want to know if the company I work for screwed up in someway. While ideally I want every customer to have a perfect experience every time, that isn't realistic. Odds are someone is going to have a bad experience. The real test from there is seeing how a company deals with a complaint.

I personally feel that this forum would be better suited by not doing advertising and relying on members to donate to support the site. I am on several other forums that work off donations. The members do a good job of policing people from bashing companies that don't deserve it.

[wabashcr]

I don't feel like anyone's opinions have been stifled here.

I generally agree, and hope it remains that way. I think that's an important part of the "for us, by us" mantra, and why this is a really great forum. I would be disappointed if that changed in an effort to appease vendors. I think the honest and forthright opinions and experiences of the members (consumers and vendors alike) are the true value of this forum, and far outweigh any potential perks or discounts. That's all I really wanted to convey.

I have no argument with any of the rest of your post.

[HIM]

Just to be clear it wasn't my intention that people shouldn't voice problems. They absolutely should. Just keep your big boy(or girl) pants on if you do. We don't need to burn bridges over simple things that can be worked out with a little patience and understanding.

[cheaphumidors]

Just to be clear it wasn't my intention that people shouldn't voice problems. They absolutely should. Just keep your big boy(or girl) pants on if you do. We don't need to burn bridges over simple things that can be worked out with a little patience and understanding.

I completely agree Cole. If my team is doing something wrong I definitely want to hear about it. However, I do think that most issues can and should be solved through private messages.