What we have to lose

[wabashcr]

I don't feel like anyone's opinions have been stifled here.

I generally agree, and hope it remains that way. I think that's an important part of the "for us, by us" mantra, and why this is a really great forum. I would be disappointed if that changed in an effort to appease vendors. I think the honest and forthright opinions and experiences of the members (consumers and vendors alike) are the true value of this forum, and far outweigh any potential perks or discounts. That's all I really wanted to convey.

I have no argument with any of the rest of your post.

[jhedrick83]

I generally agree, and hope it remains that way. I think that's an important part of the "for us, by us" mantra, and why this is a really great forum. I would be disappointed if that changed in an effort to appease vendors. I think the honest and forthright opinions and experiences of the members (consumers and vendors alike) are the true value of this forum, and far outweigh any potential perks or discounts.

I'm sure I speak for my fellow mods/admins what I say that is our goal to ensure it remains that way. I value the forum itself far more than a discount on items and if there are problem vendors that's one thing. I just think having vendor/manufacturer participation can provide the forum with a great knowledge base and good connections for the members. The best communities are well rounded ones IMO, which is why I like dissenting opinions.

[Schatzman]

I think it's great that vendors and other industry types want to interact here. It's a good way for them to get feedback, and it provides the members here with a wealth of knowledge and resources within the hobby. I like that this is a welcoming place for fostering those relationships.

That said, I think it's a mistake to stifle criticism just to pander to these businesses (which is kind of what I'm inferring from this thread). Most vendors that interact here are probably good, honorable businesses that would appreciate all feedback, good or bad. While I would never air a complaint here without trying to work it out with the vendor, and would never leverage this forum to take advantage of a supplier, I do think there can be value in discussing shortcomings publicly. Sometimes in business, even smaller businesses, the right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing. I think a respectful, yet critical dialog, can be beneficial, and even welcomed by most businesses.

There are also some businesses in this industry with some very unscrupulous business practices. I don't see any reason to dance around that. If that keeps them from participating on the forum, is that really a bad thing? Is it considered "bashing" to be honest and direct about that? I think this forum's integrity is worth a lot more than a 10% discount.

To me, the tone of this thread is very much pro-vendor. While I think it's great to establish good relationships with vendors, I don't think that should ever come at the expense of members (consumers) getting the full story. I think it's dangerous to get too cozy with suppliers, and accountability can gradually be lost. I don't see that becoming an issue for 95% of the vendors in this industry, and hopefully none of the ones that choose to participate here.

I tend to side with you on this. I work in this industry and I would want to know if the company I work for screwed up in someway. While ideally I want every customer to have a perfect experience every time, that isn't realistic. Odds are someone is going to have a bad experience. The real test from there is seeing how a company deals with a complaint.

I personally feel that this forum would be better suited by not doing advertising and relying on members to donate to support the site. I am on several other forums that work off donations. The members do a good job of policing people from bashing companies that don't deserve it.

[HIM]

Just to be clear it wasn't my intention that people shouldn't voice problems. They absolutely should. Just keep your big boy(or girl) pants on if you do. We don't need to burn bridges over simple things that can be worked out with a little patience and understanding.

[cheaphumidors]

Just to be clear it wasn't my intention that people shouldn't voice problems. They absolutely should. Just keep your big boy(or girl) pants on if you do. We don't need to burn bridges over simple things that can be worked out with a little patience and understanding.

I completely agree Cole. If my team is doing something wrong I definitely want to hear about it. However, I do think that most issues can and should be solved through private messages.

[wabashcr]

I completely agree Cole. If my team is doing something wrong I definitely want to hear about it. However, I do think that most issues can and should be solved through private messages.

I think we would all be disappointed if someone brought a problem here without giving you (or any vendor) a chance to make it right first.

[UncleFesterESQ]

Kind of sad that there's 3 pages here basically asking people not to act like douchebags... What the hell is the internet doing to people?

As for advertisements on the site... much better than relying on members to continuously make donations to keep site up and running. I'm cheap. If I have to pay to play I'd rather not play. God forbid there's actually a year where the site creators actually make a bit of cash for putting up with all the bull shit.

[Sigaar]

I see no problem with calling out vendors, GOOD and BAD, when that needs to be done. Of course, I don't own this forum, so not my rules. I've been on a regional gun forum for a few years that allows this, and frankly, think it's a good thing. No doubt, it's a more "rowdy" forum and you need a thick skin, which I'm okay with. There are many vendors on that forum, and sure, I'm pretty sure some of the crummy ones have left. Not sure that's a bad thing!! And if a member posts BS...believe me, you WILL be called out by the membership! I also think that's a good thing.

I guess I see calling out vendors as something that should be okay, and looked at on a case by case basis. Bottom line is if someone is having issues with Vendor XYZ, I'd like to hear about it and make my OWN decision as to whether I'll buy from them, or not. What is acceptable to you, may not be acceptable to me. I worked in the retail business for 15 years and everyone has varying degrees on what good service is...I may be fussier than you, and that's my right. I love the free market and people making their own INFORMED decisions, and the more knowledge you have the easier it is to do.

I'm also a fan of praising vendors when due. I did that not long ago about Holt's. Anyway...my two cents.

ETA: I've never had an issue with a cigar related vendor.

[MoreBeer]

I didn't read the entire thread although can add this.....

I develop software for the graphics and printing industry and also develop for Adobe as an independent contractor. Anyhow, I avoid posting to industry related forums like the plague. It has encouraged nothing but trouble and ridiculous bullshit for me. A developer who sells their own products can never win on industry forums, even when trying to be helpful....including when most likely 30% of the participants on the forum use one of the products and are more than satisfied with it. Maybe the cigar industry is different? I wouldn't know.

[Nature]

I didn't read the entire thread although can add this.....

I develop software for the graphics and printing industry and also develop for Adobe as an independent contractor. Anyhow, I avoid posting to industry related forums like the plague. It has encouraged nothing but trouble and ridiculous bullshit for me. A developer who sells their own products can never win on industry forums, even when trying to be helpful....including when most likely 30% of the participants on the forum use one of the products and are more than satisfied with it. Maybe the cigar industry is different? I wouldn't know.

Maybe this forum is different? I think so.