What we have to lose

[Bruck]

Amen, Bro!

Technically, we're all in the cigar industry

[jhedrick83]

Not to mention @cheaphumidors samplers.

http://www.cigarbum.com/forum/showth...-FINALLY-Here!

Excellent cigars at a great price for all levels and it helps support the site. Keeping the lights on isn't free.

[Emperor Zurg]

Not to mention @cheaphumidors samplers.

http://www.cigarbum.com/forum/showth...-FINALLY-Here!

Excellent cigars at a great price for all levels and it helps support the site. Keeping the lights on isn't free.

They are excellent cigars. I'm mostly a pipe guy and I may even have to spring for one of those

But can you imagine how inconsiderate it is for a few members, running their mouths, to drive off all the retailers and then expect someone (like Don) to continue to pick up the tab for site hosting and maintenance? ...and then remain on the site defending their actions after their vitriol has destroyed any chance the site may have had to be self sustaining? I for one, can't imagine the gall it takes to do such a thing. There's a way to handle a complaint and there's a way not to handle it. IMO the very first thing you ought to do is get over yourself and step back and see if what you're about to blow up about is REALLY that big a deal. The $2, short filler cigar thing? Not a big deal. A broken pigtail in a box of good cigars? Not a big deal. A $200 box of premiums full of beetle holes? Big deal and I have no doubt the retailer would make it right - however, I wouldn't expect them to replace every single cigar in your humidor just because you were dumb enough to toss them in there without checking them first. FTR, 99.5% of the vendor bashing posts I've seen over at the other place were the result of one or more of 3 things: 1) The customer doing something aggressive from the start (like a credit card charge-back) 2) the customer making unreasonable demands 3) the customer airing their dirty laundry on the forum before ever trying to make it right with the vendor

[Demuths1770]

the bashing always got old on there. im glade it has yet to happen on here and hope to see more people in the industry join our great new home

[Jaybird]

YOu guys know he was directly talking about me at Stogie Toys right? BAaaahhhhhaaaaaaaa


Well said Cole! I totally agree man. There are so many benefits to both sides of the coin when it comes to this or any forum. Us as customers get GREAT deals and discounts and well, us as vendors get a direct way to interact with the consumer and find out EXACTLY what it is that you want. It really is a WIN WIN and I am SO happy to be on both sides of the coin! Not that I sell cigars here but elsewhere I am a very active forum member and vendor for Brewing Equipment and man I have to tell you it is nice as a vendor to know what our customers want and need.
I like this place!

Cheers
Jay

[Browns7213]

YOu guys know he was directly talking about me at Stogie Toys right? BAaaahhhhhaaaaaaaa

Jay

I have a complaint about Stogie Toys. I ordered the purple one and they sent me the stainless steel color. Can I sue for to that? Man I hope this doesn't get censored!

[Jaybird]

I have a complaint about Stogie Toys. I ordered the purple one and they sent me the stainless steel color. Can I sue for to that? Man I hope this doesn't get censored!

Baaahhhhaaaaaa David.... Ummmmmmm NO! Baaahhhhaaaaaaa


Cheers

Jay

[CamoSutra]

Here is how I view the entire issue:

If a member here, or any cigar smoker, has a problem with a vendor the first place to voice that problem is with the vendor -- not an online forum. Explain what is wrong, give the vendor an opportunity to rectify the problem. Understand that sometimes things don't go perfectly, and politely requesting corrective action is far more likely to achieve the desired results than simply complaining. The only one who can fix a foul-up is the one who caused the foul-up -- that's either you or the vendor, and even if it's your fault most vendors will do all they can to keep you happy so that you continue to do business with them.

If a vendor blatantly and deliberately does something unethical, or refuses to correct a problem they (not you) caused, or causes the same problem repeatedly, then you owe it to the cigar community in general to describe the problem here and/or on other cigar-related forums. We need and want to know about cheats and thieves, but fortunately their kind are pretty rare in the cigar industry.

Most of the time, any problem or disagreement with a vendor is just a misunderstanding or the result of a legitimate fault in the online-ordering system. An example: Not too long ago I ordered some cigars from an online vendor whose Website had just been substantially updated. In my haste, I failed to notice that I had clicked on a delivery address that was at least three years out-of-date, and discovered my mistake only when I received an automated e-mail confirming the order; this was late on a Saturday evening, with no one either online or near a phone at the vendor's end. I immediately sent an e-mail requesting that the order be switched to my then-current address, but the vendor's e-mail was not functioning properly and the order went to the old address before anyone at the vendor's end got to read my e-mail. They made good, but it took a little longer than it normally would and in the interim I placed another order with a different vendor. While the problem was partly theirs because of their site's e-mail system not working properly, I certainly shared the blame because I wasn't paying attention when I placed the order. The worst thing that happened, when all was said and done, was that I temporarily ended up with more cigars than my humidors would hold. I still do business with that vendor, because they fixed a problem I caused in the first place, when they could have just as easily have said it wasn't their problem because they sent the order where I told them to.

I didn't mention this to anyone except the vendor, until just now. I did not accuse the vendor of not caring because they failed to read my e-mail and re-address the shipment before it left on the Brown Truck. I did not complain about their Website's e-mail system not working properly. I did not complain because their new Website defaulted to the old address -- which i should have noticed and deleted long ago. I had to wait an extra couple of days to receive that shipment, which wasn't really a hardship since I already had a good supply of cigars and I had ordered more which arrived before the mis-addressed shipment got to me.

Now, if this vendor had refused to work with me to correct the mistake, or had been rude to me, you can be sure I would have screamed bloody murder. But instead they went the "extra mile" to keep me happy.

Incidentally, they have since fixed the bug in their e-mail system, and thanked me for bringing it to their attention.

[wabashcr]

I think it's great that vendors and other industry types want to interact here. It's a good way for them to get feedback, and it provides the members here with a wealth of knowledge and resources within the hobby. I like that this is a welcoming place for fostering those relationships.

That said, I think it's a mistake to stifle criticism just to pander to these businesses (which is kind of what I'm inferring from this thread). Most vendors that interact here are probably good, honorable businesses that would appreciate all feedback, good or bad. While I would never air a complaint here without trying to work it out with the vendor, and would never leverage this forum to take advantage of a supplier, I do think there can be value in discussing shortcomings publicly. Sometimes in business, even smaller businesses, the right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing. I think a respectful, yet critical dialog, can be beneficial, and even welcomed by most businesses.

There are also some businesses in this industry with some very unscrupulous business practices. I don't see any reason to dance around that. If that keeps them from participating on the forum, is that really a bad thing? Is it considered "bashing" to be honest and direct about that? I think this forum's integrity is worth a lot more than a 10% discount.

To me, the tone of this thread is very much pro-vendor. While I think it's great to establish good relationships with vendors, I don't think that should ever come at the expense of members (consumers) getting the full story. I think it's dangerous to get too cozy with suppliers, and accountability can gradually be lost. I don't see that becoming an issue for 95% of the vendors in this industry, and hopefully none of the ones that choose to participate here.

[jhedrick83]

I think it's great that vendors and other industry types want to interact here. It's a good way for them to get feedback, and it provides the members here with a wealth of knowledge and resources within the hobby. I like that this is a welcoming place for fostering those relationships.

That said, I think it's a mistake to stifle criticism just to pander to these businesses (which is kind of what I'm inferring from this thread). Most vendors that interact here are probably good, honorable businesses that would appreciate all feedback, good or bad. While I would never air a complaint here without trying to work it out with the vendor, and would never leverage this forum to take advantage of a supplier, I do think there can be value in discussing shortcomings publicly. Sometimes in business, even smaller businesses, the right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing. I think a respectful, yet critical dialog, can be beneficial, and even welcomed by most businesses.

There are also some businesses in this industry with some very unscrupulous business practices. I don't see any reason to dance around that. If that keeps them from participating on the forum, is that really a bad thing? Is it considered "bashing" to be honest and direct about that? I think this forum's integrity is worth a lot more than a 10% discount.

To me, the tone of this thread is very much pro-vendor. While I think it's great to establish good relationships with vendors, I don't think that should ever come at the expense of members (consumers) getting the full story. I think it's dangerous to get too cozy with suppliers, and accountability can gradually be lost. I don't see that becoming an issue for 95% of the vendors in this industry, and hopefully none of the ones that choose to participate here.

I don't feel like anyone's opinions have been stifled here. I fact I think quite a few contentious threads have been allowed to run unmolesed and unclosed. I'd say Cigar Bum mode and admins have been very tolerant of dissenting opinions. Posts haven't been edited, members have been banned over these things. There may have been warnings to keep things on topic and civil but I don't think that can be reasonably objected to. The thread has a pro-vendor tone due in large part because we have been trying to answer Ropey's question of why we care if vendors are here or not. Naturally the answer will be pro-vendor. I agree it is good to express concerns about vendors as long as it is done in a respectful manner. I also think it's important for people to realize that just because they had a bad experience doesn't mean that company X is crooked, bad for the industry, etc. and not immediately turn it into a personal crusade to ruin company X. If there are consistent, repeated problems with vendors then yeah, that's a big issue. I just think you get more bees with honey than vinegar. That's not everyone's opinion and that's fine but for the best interests of the community attitudes need to stay respectful and realistic. I don't think that's too much to ask.